radiolab inheritance transcript
I like you, I get the sense that there's a lot of warmth in you. If you're a starving boy between 9 to 12 years old, now it doesn't matter a whole lot what happens to you after this, your grandchildren will have one-quarter the risk of heart disease. JAD: Lamarck said, You wanna know how a giraffe got its long neck?, JAD: One day this giraffe, mother giraffe, lets say, was looking up in the tree and saw some fruit, and had to stretch he neck, and stretch again. It's off-limits. Then World War One came and that disrupted everything. PAT: If Barbara had gotten to Destiny's birth mom, Destiny, Kalia, this moment, none of it would exist. Radiolab is on YouTube! Covid has disrupted the most basic routines of our days and nights. When rats have more of this protein, they will act more motherly. LYNN PALTROW: Well, her explanation is that these women are having, in her terms, litters of damaged babies and society forever will be responsible for them. I just saw them as child abusers. Yep, Im a professor in the faculty of medicine at McGill University in Montreal. They didn't have grains. I'm so proud and I have four years clean. SAM KEAN: I should add too. And she says oftentimes the women who want help have a really hard time finding it. Well, that's the good news, but unfortunately there is some bad news here. So by now it's 1994, and Barbara is thinking You know? It's against the rules. It seemed to have been passed down for multiple generations. Okay, and then I just had to accept it. They've seen it and they've repeated the experience. SAM KEAN: Except he had one. More what kind of stuff? JAD: Its an idea thats been kicking around for me since my kids were born. ROBERT: Which turn out to be an interesting thing to look at it because the people in verkalix who were farming SAM KEAN: Trying to eke a living out of the soil. And there were from the beginning. So he's got to live his life as a toad with all this baggage on him? She's 22 now and she's never even met her birth mom. You cant say that. We'll just get one more.". SAM KEAN: And the key point is that it wasnt something inborn in them. PAT: Did that scare you at all? You got to kick it back. When they got another call from a social worker saying that same mother, Destiny's birth mother, had given birth to another child. OLOV BYGREN: So they didn't starve to death. This, of course, is Destiny. That's how I've always looked at it. Four or five steps later, we are in JAD: So almost instantaneously, the mother's tongue has reached into the baby's brain cells. But then, a few years would pass, crops would bounce back. Completely answer all questions in Section I AND Section IV. [laughs] Can you say, "Never, ever?" I ended up finding myself really conflicted about it. You're finishing college, right? So that's fun. And the key point is that it wasnt something inborn in them. That was it. ROBERT: But then, a few years would pass, crops would bounce back. Never mind, you're stuck with small boobies." All these women who have so many babies and never try to seek drug treatment. And rewrite the so-called rules of genetics. It's just a mind crushing tedium. But with the midwife toad, the female SAM KEAN: Lays her eggs on land and then the male midwife toad comes along SAM KEAN: And actually kind of sticks them to his back legs, like a bunch of whitish grapes, and then hops around with them basically until they hatch. I mean, youre just youre saying a lot of things that are really impressive. That's the stuff that makes you you. Its gonna get messy. [ARCHIVAL CLIP, BARBARA HARRIS: I feel that they should all be sterilized. JAD: It's off-limits. CARL ZIMMER: You know, the fact is that taking care of animals, trying to keep them alive in a building is not an easy thing, especially if it's 1903. So some scientists began to ask Kammerer if they could look at his toads. I wonder how much you believe in it. BARBARA HARRIS: After I've gotten to know so many of the women. SAM KEAN: No, they did not have them on land. She was thinking Can I offer these women money to use birth control? So this whole debate, two totally different ways of seeing life. Like, I mean, as far as positives can go, I think I hit the jackpot. CARL ZIMMER: Kammerer puts on a suit and he walks off into the mountains SAM KEAN: Outside Vienna on a Rocky mountain trail. Push yourself and you got it.". In a very real way, weve been thinking a lot about inheritance. BARBARA HARRIS: I'm not saying that these women are dogs but they're not acting any more responsible than a dog in heat. We ended up talking to the guy who did the work. PAT: And I just felt like it was in one of those moments that contains everything that's good about us as people. ROBERT: Truth is, we dont know precisely how this happens but somehow the experience of starvation marks the DNA. CARL ZIMMER: And in1923, he actually comes to England. PAT: Watching this, I couldn't help but think that Destiny's very existence is probably the most interesting argument against what Barbara is doing. Listen Feb 10, 2023 Bliss When did you last shout from happiness? But were getting ahead of ourselves here. I just saw them as child abusers. SAM KEAN: If you have a starving daddy, it turns out that the baby actually gets some sort of health benefit. JAD: Wait, when you say they can choose to be sterilized, you mean permanent? So moms licking activates serotonin, and it's released onto brain cells in the hippocampus. Everybody we talked to seems to think there's something really interesting going on here. You're obviously a great mom, but that feels cold to me. You have to do that for five hours a day for six consecutive days. It says, "Race of Supermen." Radiolab is a radio program broadcast on public radio stations in the United States, and a podcast available internationally, both produced by WNYC.Hosted by Jad Abumrad, Latif Nasser and Lulu Miller, each episode focuses on a topic of a scientific and philosophical nature, through stories, interviews, and thought experiments.. Radiolab: Parasites Transcript For copyright reasons we can't provide a transcript of the WNYC Radiolab feature on parasites. JAD: Actually, the idea itself is pretty old. But she says, you can tell right away, just by looking, that some rat moms don't lick their kids a lot. So, of course the folks at the Vivarium asked him. SAM KEAN: He extended this idea to people. She was totally an oops kid. If you have a starving daddy, it turns out that the baby actually gets some sort of health benefit. When Emil gets to be eight, I'm cutting him off. MICHAEL MEANEY: Yeah, you can't touch that. ROBERT: So you think you can get deep down? All these chemicals racing by crashing into it, sticking, and one of the bits that gets covered up is that little bit that makes the proteins that create a maternal instinct. You know? They wanted to see basically the effects of starvation on multiple generations. OLOV BYGREN: Well It's one-fourth, we can we say. And she says, one day, this idea just came to her. They could eat twice, three times as much. JAD: What happens, it'll get stuck to one little part of the DNA and now that little bit of DNA FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: Is very difficult to get at. OLOV BYGREN: The results are there. More brain cells? Yeah, it was a very attractive theory to them in Moscow. Because it would reflect badly on the Soviet state. Where we sought, they will find. Harris says her program, children requiring a caring community, or CRACK], Can prevent thousands of unwanted births to drug-addicted women. [foreign language]. ROBERT: Are you near the Arctic Circle or OLOV BYGREN: My home village was 10 miles North of polar circle. I think I was really horrified and terrified. You know, you've got all these chemicals around. In this episode, originally aired in 2012, we put nature and nurture on a collision course and discover how outside forces can find a way inside us, and change not just our hearts and minds, but the basic biological blueprint that we pass on to future generations.Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab today. Radiolab is an outstanding radio show broadcast out of New York City on WNYC. And one of them is called the thyroid system. BARBARA HARRIS: Sounds bizarre, but it's a solution. Thats like, I mean, that seems like a thing that would be frightening. JAD: You know, inside these cells, in the center, coiled up in little spools, is the DNA. These are women who love their children, who sought help. JAD: And what about the four kids that weren't raised with Barbara? And what about the four kids that weren't raised with Barbara? PEJK MALINOVSKI: He was an idiot. Get personalized recommendations, and learn where to watch across hundreds of streaming providers. Yes. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: Methyl groups are pretty sticky, they're hard to get off. ], [ARCHIVAL Clip, Daytime Talkshow: I'd like everybody to meet, please, Barbara Harris. And I was a waitress, I worked for IHOP for over 30 years. On the Radiolab website they define the show as follows: "Radiolab is a show about curiosity. Birth mother's name was actually the same as me, so, Barbara. Just don't have any more children because, at that point, I didn't really know any of them. JAD: Everybody we talked to seems to think there's something really interesting going on here. Well, I guess I was thinking we could just start at the beginning. Plus, find other cool things we did in the past like miniseries, music videos, short films and animations, behind-the-scenes features, Radiolab live shows, and more. So now, the genes can make the proteins that make the rats a good mom? I wont say too much more except it includes one of my favorite kind of scientific parables that like Ive ever heard. [laughs[ So yeah, it's embarrassing, but I believe everything happens for a reason. JAD: Not only that. According to Frances, it's not just sitting up there perfectly preserved, it's in the middle of the cell, it's crowded. We neuter them.". ROBERT: You wonder, where did that come from? BARBARA HARRIS: "She's born and tested positive for PCP crack and heroin." That was it. ], This could mean sterilization, it could mean getting an IUD.]. Not usually because it upsets people and I'm Canadian. They all go down to the DNA, surround that methyl and just, pow! JAD: I initially felt very hopeful and excited about this research because it seems to suggest that a body, one body can respond to an environment and change and be flexible in a way we didn't think was possible. OLOV BYGREN: Yes, we are really data-rich. We went to the foster home and went in. Yes, but creating an assumption that there is a class of people who don't deserve to procreate, who aren't worthy of procreating the human race, leads you down a path that we should have great concern about. CARL ZIMMER: Enhancing public understanding of science and technology CHARLOTTE ZIMMER: in the modern world. And Destiny says she doesn't really care DESTINY HARRIS: I got these genes from somewhere, but I kind of feel like she was a surrogate, like she carried me for my real mom. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab today. PAT: But at that point just two of the six boys were living at home, Brian and Rodney. CARL ZIMMER: More information about Sloan at JAD: Yeah, we're exploring questions of lwhat can you pass down to your kids and their kids? Okay, so lets get going and stick with your boy, Lamarck, just for a sec. The lady knew why we were there. by Nolan Moore. BARBARA HARRIS: Saying the mother had given birth to a baby girl, did we want her? This is Radiolab. I know I've been joking a lot in this interview, but I mean it with all that I am. I'm graduating in December. Suddenly you're marked. PAT: You picked him up right from the hospital? ROBERT: Rewrite their their blueprint? So he actually went to Vienna. They decided to explore this question, They thought, "Let's just see if we can figure out how it is the rat mothers pass down their parenting skills?". Thyroid hormones then get into the brain and they turn on certain neural chemical signals. BARBARA HARRIS: It was just no baby should have to come into the world like that. A lot of times that's not the case. Don't you see, somehow the mother's tongue is getting all the way down in there and going [mumbles] and messing with the baby's DNA. And they had more. I wont say too much more except it includes one of my favorite kind of scientific parables that like Ive ever heard. Then she goes, "Oh wait, I didn't give birth to you. As he's doing his rounds, he stops by the midwife toad terrarium, he looks down at that little male toad with grapes stuck to his legs and he wonders, "How adaptable is that little guy?" ROBERT: Okay. Sat her on my lap, with her little dress on and her little curly hair. Which, when you think about it, it has a very Lamarckian flavor. The women who I've worked with, who've had a history of drug problems, aren't like the examples that she gives. That kind of 30 years? Professional authors can write an essay in 3 hours, if there is a certain volume, but it must be borne in mind that with such a service the price will be the highest. Who now works at Columbia University. The reason they're more aroused is that the mom's licking activates the release of adrenaline and noradrenaline in the pup. Its something I still think about all the time. [laughs] Can you say, "Never, ever?" When Kammerer published his results initially, a bunch of scientists immediately began to say "Wait a minute, hold on here, it would be nice if life was like that but life isn't like that. PAT: And that's when things would start to get out of control. BARBARA HARRIS: No, I've only had somebody call and say they regret that they didn't stay on birth control. Basically, the midwife toad has a strange habit for toads. Thyroid hormones then get into the brain and they turn on certain neural chemical signals. SMITTY HARRIS: He was just You know, most babies are kinda peaceful, he was never really peaceful. Well, I guess I was thinking we could just start at the beginning. DESTINY HARRIS: To her, I matter. This was a really radical place at the time because you have to remember that people studying animals up till now, they were basically studying preserved specimens, and so on. Riksarkivet. CHARLOTTE ZIMMER: Hi, my name is Charlotte Zimmer. Yeah. Wait, when you say they can choose to be sterilized, you mean permanent? We'll just be honest. And then that baby would stretch and stretch, and it would give a little more stretching to its baby. PEJK MALINOVSKI: What does that mean, he was an idiot? So she told me Barbara had another baby and BARBARA HARRIS: Did we want it? I mean, when you look at the records, you don't see huge spikes in mortality. That's against the rules. PAT: Right away, people accused her of targeting women at their weakest moment and enabling their drug abuse. To her, I matter. We all know this, that there are cycles of abuse or whatever. [WILL: Hi, this is Will, calling from Northumberland, England. SAM KEAN: And he would basically turn the heat way, way up in these aquariums until they had to go underwater. 01:04:34 - Once a kid is born, their genetic fate is pretty much sealed. CHARLOTTE ZIMMER: Radiolab is supported in part by the National Science Foundation and CHARLOTTE and VERONICA ZIMMER: The Alfred P. Sloan Foundation. JAD: Is that a genetic hatred of whistling that I just had? FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: Why? I don't know where she gets that from. I didn't see them as people. CARL ZIMMER: She carries your kids for nine months and you're like, "That poor male toad.". SAM KEAN: And when he examined it, he noticed that there was a syringe hole there. [ARCHIVAL Clip, News: Barbara Harris says she's convinced more than a dozen women], [ARCHIVAL Clip, News: Have accepted her offer to be sterilized in return for money.]. Or is it? As a parent, you are a tiny blip in a very, very, long story. JAD: If the genes are the bottom floor, then this layer on top is sometimes called the epigenome and that thing can change based on your experiences. And, you know, there was kind of antisemitism growing at this time, so he thought that someone had framed him, and six weeks after Nobel published his results in Nature, Kammerer sent a letter to Moscow. What you see in the records, is that one year 100 liters. So much can happen after that. [chuckles]. MICHAEL MEANEY: Known as transcription factors. Kammerer thought, "Wow.". You mean, if you had a starving grandfather, you would be a healthier boy for the because you had a starving grandfather? Stick around. "To Whom It May Concern, I have been doing very good. So. PAT: But were getting ahead of ourselves here. But it failed. JAD: Serotonin gets into the brain cells, and according to Michael unleashes MICHAEL MEANEY: A whole series of molecular events inside the cell. OLOV BYGREN: Well, for cardiovascular disease JAD: Olov told us, take heart disease. The bit of DNA that will give this baby when it grows up the instincts to be nice to its baby, and lick that baby. JAD: Or did I somehow learn that? He had one remaining midwife toad. ROBERT: A few years later, there'd be a harsh winter. "To Whom It May Concern, I have been doing very good. The kingdom archive. And it just so happens this town is a perfect place to dig. PAT: And she says oftentimes the women who want help have a really hard time finding it. PAT: And all over the political spectrum, from Hollywood lefties to social conservatives. MICHAEL MEANEY: I think the Swedish data are really, really strong, and very reliable. JAD: Visited Kammerer's lab when Kammerer wasn't there. ], [ARCHIVAL CLIP, BARBARA HARRIS: Probably racist.]. I mean, when you look at the records, you don't see huge spikes in mortality. These women don't just have one and two babies. BARBARA HARRIS: And I knew that the only way I was going to get a daughter was if I went and became a foster parent and asked for one. Yeah, like you can help them overcome you. ROBERT: What do you mean? It would be wrong to think that they represent all women who use drugs while they're pregnant. At the Vivarium, as the name suggests, they have live animals. ", In other words, "Could I pay women who have drug problems to stop having babies?". Around 1908, he started publishing all of these results. JAD: They suddenly had to get by on a tiny fraction of the food that they were used to. The kingdom archive. Visit our website. What can't you? Destiny has, what, three brothers and sisters that also were raised with her? SAM KEAN: The sperm carries these marks to the next generation. Like Id be like, Weve got the keys, were gonna trash the house., LATIF: Anyway, we think about that all the time and I was just talking to Lulu about that and she was just like, You know, theres a radiolab about this.. When they got another call from a social worker saying that same mother, Destiny's birth mother, had given birth to another child. Heart disease. JAD: Even if it helps, it's horrifying. ROBERT: According to Darwin, life and changes are ruled by chance. To learn more about higher level giving opportunities please contact the Development Office at giving@nypublicradio.org or (646) 829-4130. We have experts even in very specific fields of study, so you will definitely find a writer who can manage your order. CARL ZIMMER: He actually named his daughter Lacerta, which is a genus of lizard. This great. JAD: Thats just the cold logic of Darwinian evolution. About 30 years ago-. And right now, I'm student teaching. There were four girls and Barbara and Destiny told me that a few years ago they found three of them and they all either were in college or had finished college. ROBERT: Thats what Darwin says, you cant. JAD: Still, that's a burden that, he's carrying a big burden there. When I started spending some time with Destiny, Barbara's 22-year-old daughter. And if you haven't, you can choose to have an IUD, or an implant put in which will last for several years. I should add too. We actually sent our friend, Pejk Malinovski, to the archives in Stockholm to check it out. Move on to the next cage, yes, no? It's only the mechanisms are not so clear. Well, I just want to eliminate drug-addicted babies from being born. She got one. Right away, people accused her of targeting women at their weakest moment and enabling their drug abuse. Were there any consequences? PAT: But she says she doesn't feel that way anymore. She said, "Thank you so much for the gift, I bought my son an excavator truck, remote control and some summer outfits." [laughs]. Were told. But according to Kammerer, here's what happened when he heated up the toads little cage. [chuckles]. One-fourth? JAD: See, this is the story of science that doesn't get told. OLOV BYGREN: It was very interesting discovery. And I've got say, I'm feeling pretty good about this show so far. These are women who love their children, who sought help. She filled out the forms went BARBARA HARRIS: Through all the training that we had to do and first aid, fingerprinted and had a background check done. ROBERT: Well, lets not get too excited too fast because we have a story to tell and this tale leaves me a little queasy. One time, and I'm on flighter. If you were a boy in verkalix between the ages of 9 and 12 years old, that's the window, 9 to 12, you're a boy, and then we have one of those terribly rough winters, and you're eating much less than normal. Well, this is it! The fact that you're motivated by a really beautiful, important value, that we want healthy kids, doesn't mean the mechanism you're using is going to end up helping those kids. New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. OLOV BYGREN: A lot of diagnoses actually. PAT: The question that was stuck in my head right then was, "If you could choose between being born knowing that your life might end up like that and not like it is now, or not been born at all, what would you have done?". ROBERT: They won't grow much on the outside, but on the inside OLOV BYGREN: That is the time where the sperms are developing. PAT: Even though Destiny's mom was doing all sorts of drugs during her pregnancy and the doctors told Barbara that Destiny was going to be mentally and physically delayed DESTINY HARRIS: Not feeling the way I'm supposed to feel. ], I'd like everybody to meet, please, Barbara Harris. ROBERT: I wonder. I mean, the idea that they could be constrained by their DNA, that maybe one of us gave them a bit of DNA thats gonna hold them back? And I didn't find a single case of someone saying that they regretted what they've done. JAD: I mean, it's pretty common but like, here's a for instance, my dad from my entire life had this thing where if someone was whistling, he would like they could be whistling six tables over in a restaurant and he would turn around and be like, "Stop that," it was like it was scraping his very nerves. PAT: And according to Barbara, the majority of the women she pays are white. It's such a surprising result. ROBERT: And it just so happens this town is a perfect place to dig. Thanks to Frances Champagne and Michael Meany and Sam Kean, who writes about Paul Kammerer in his book, . This is what's called the slow growth period. She's 22 now and she's never even met her birth mom. Last I heard she was living on the streets in LA. You can't see that on the radio but, hey, it's a fact of life. They have found very similar effects for smoking, for instance. I mean, they didn't have porridge. Do you have any theories for how this tongue is tickling the DNA, or whatever it's doing? PAT: Barbara says they've reached out to her many times but they never heard back. So here's what you're going to notice. CARL ZIMMER: He's 22, 23, and he already had this reputation for being amazing at keeping animals alive, that otherwise would just die. PAT: Which I find kind of hard to believe but, then again, I must have read at least 100 news articles as I was reporting this story. Stretching got into the baby. And if you haven't, you can choose to have an IUD, or an implant put in which will last for several years. She started to wish again that she could have a daughter. You know, just take a little peek for themselves, and every time Kammerer said no, they were his specimens. JAD: You got your good parents and your bad parents. JAD: They all go down to the DNA, surround that methyl and just, pow! You know what they're going to go do with that money. JAD: It makes a kind of common sense, really. Anyways, God bless you. I know I've been joking a lot in this interview, but I mean it with all that I am. That was the implication, except Kammerer tried to defend himself by saying "Do you think I'm a Dummkopf, or an idiot, because that's what I would have to be if I left a forgery with ink standing around openly in the laboratory where so many of my enemies would have entry?". It was this struggle for a few years. I know! Very easily. ROBERT: So then the one that's in trouble, so thats one of one of eight? View Radiolab_-_Inheritance_Questions.docx from BISC MISC at University of Mississippi. Whole lifetime of stretching. JAD: That's against the rules. Kinda makes me claustrophobic. And then they're going to basically revel at that particular spot and turn on that gene. 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